Douglas Adams Continuum (DAC)

Discuss...

_________________
Her mouth opened, her eyes patients, the variety of age and constitution as a pullets egg, with some gobbits of fat, and the heavy sand.

(... don't piss us off)

I don't think so. I think that it has been taken over by loons, though.

I have known some smart religious people, in my time. What they all had in common was, they didn't let their religion get in the way of their common sense.

The problems with religion always arises when people start taking it literally.

_________________
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.

-H.L. Mencken


[url]http://www.madmanoz.blogspot.com[/url]

I can be weak but I don't take refuge in religion - I just wrestle with my inner demons all by myself and go not-so-quietly insane.

Sometimes I wish I did have a religion so I could just have faith that everything was going to be alright, but the rational part of my mind won't have it.

I read the eulogy at my Grandma's funeral last week, she was a Christian but I couldn't bring myself to say anything remotely religious at the service, I just read out some memories and quoted something from Doctor Who.

Dr. S.

_________________
Imagine a ball of iron, the size of the sun. And once a year a tiny sparrow brushes its surface with the tip of its wing. And when that ball of iron, the size of the sun, is worn away to nothing, your punishment will barely have begun.

www.sinisterincorporated.co.uk

www.tabletown.co.uk

Religion to me is a cop out. Do what the fuck you want, god will always be there to forgive your sins. Religion makes more bad people than good.

_________________
Her mouth opened, her eyes patients, the variety of age and constitution as a pullets egg, with some gobbits of fat, and the heavy sand.

(... don't piss us off)

Agreed. And it gives people an excuse to do appalling things in the name of their chosen deity.

At least I'm honest - I just do appalling things because I want to.

Dr. S.

_________________
Imagine a ball of iron, the size of the sun. And once a year a tiny sparrow brushes its surface with the tip of its wing. And when that ball of iron, the size of the sun, is worn away to nothing, your punishment will barely have begun.

www.sinisterincorporated.co.uk

www.tabletown.co.uk

I'm agnostic at the best of time, but...

Came by a fitting quote adapted from George Bernard Shaw. The word 'alcohol' was replaced by 'religion' to adapt it to circumstances in Egypt. Could easily apply to religion(s) in general...

'Religion is the anaesthesia by which we endure the operation of life.'


...and who in the name of bob wants to go through life anaesthetized?

To me religion is nothing but a tool for rulers to control the masses. As luck will have it, many people feel some sort of need for a purpose, meaning, sense. While in reality the closest we get to meaning is '42', people who want to control other people are so very happy to provide a system which justifies their supremacy even though they do not have the knowledge or education to be in charge. The system has developed from the mere control of land and heritage by way of marriage, to a series of norms dictating behaviour, most notably the stratification of society fitting the ruling class in medieval times. The church had found a trusty old partner and danced along and so the marriage was judged as good business. For all except the poor masses. They invented their own religion later on though. Socialism. It has taken much the same route as religion, and joins it in their common decline in popularity. Luckily entrepreneurial skill and ingenuity is rapidly taking the place of such badly drawn schemes, so utopia might still be at hand...

Peace
Skei (the hoax, me? Naah... one)

_________________
Ophelia was a preference, not humanly accessible, not as such.

Well amen to that.

_________________
The drug purportedly affected an area of the brain called "Shatner's Bassoon"

I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in my body. Then I realized who was telling me this.
http://s267.photobucket.com/albums/ii297/h2g230/

well, as you know i´m a complete atheist (aka heathen*), but while it is easy to write religion off as something for the weak and blind, i tend to view it as a mixed bag of goods - meaning that i also see its potential for good. in this, actually, it is very much a mirror of humanity - as each human being has the potential for good and evil, the same goes for religion. and why wouldn´t it, being essentially a human creation?
one point i´d argue strongly against is the "religion is for the weak". i disagree. there are examples of extremely strong people, men and women, throughout the course of history, who found strength in their belief. Dietrich Bonhoeffer comes to mind, Mother Teresa, obviously, Martin Luther King, to name just a few prominent examples.
so: argue against the merits of religion all you like, but i don´t think that you can write it off that easily as something only for weak people.

*go on - ask me why i want a church wedding...

_________________
"The human gene pool needs more lifeguards!
Either that or stronger chlorination...." (Pitbull)

Religion is something you have in order to not have to take responsibility for your actions and behaviour and attitude. It is also the most hypocritical and cowardly phenomenon in the world. When science proofs the bible is wrong, christians simply stop believing in that particular detail and say it's not to be taken literally and that you have to consider the time when the thing was written. They treat their holy book as a sort of buffet, where they pick out the good bits that suits their purposes, and call the rest of it allegory. Unless you're a fundamentalist, in which case you simply kill the scientist for being heretic and and infidel.

The really disgusting part of all this is when you present religion as truth to children, who have no way of questioning or resisting or even of making a choice based on common sense, science and proof.

Religion is the root of all evil.

_________________
Before long now, I'll reach the age where farting will be an essential part of propulsion.
(...don't piss us off)

I disagree. People are the root of all evil. Religion is just stories.

_________________
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.

-H.L. Mencken


[url]http://www.madmanoz.blogspot.com[/url]

a bit what lord-z said. damning religion per se is a bit like damning each and every human idea or system of belief because all can be perverted.
i´d be careful of this course, as i know some pretty nice and rooted believers, and they are good people. i wouldn´t want to belittle their faith. religion has spurred a lot of people to do good things when other beliefs or thoughts apparently weren´t enough or convincing enough.

_________________
"The human gene pool needs more lifeguards!
Either that or stronger chlorination...." (Pitbull)

I was raised as Christian, but luckily not too strictly. I knew religion was there, I just didn't pay much attention to it. Later in life, I have turned to kind of atheist. I always find it hard to believe that people actually seem to take religion seriously. Christianity (and other major religions) have many good points, but are also so contradictory and confusing that I find them very hard to swallow.

Actually I like many seremonies that religions have for turning points in life, I would just lose the actual religious content of them.

I know many religious people, including my mother. I usually try not talk about these things with them, since I have noticed that it really upsets many of them. Rather wimpy attitude, but I usually tend to avoid unnecessary conflicts.

I don't know about weakness, though. I know some strong and intelligent religious people. I have sometimes thought its almost like a genetic thing: some people tend to be religious, some don't.

to me that's a bit like the old argument that guns don't kill people.

_________________
Before long now, I'll reach the age where farting will be an essential part of propulsion.
(...don't piss us off)

and they don´t... do they?

_________________
"The human gene pool needs more lifeguards!
Either that or stronger chlorination...." (Pitbull)

Usually, it's the bullets.

.....or the rappers.;)

_________________
The drug purportedly affected an area of the brain called "Shatner's Bassoon"

I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in my body. Then I realized who was telling me this.
http://s267.photobucket.com/albums/ii297/h2g230/

...or the double posts.

_________________
The drug purportedly affected an area of the brain called "Shatner's Bassoon"

I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in my body. Then I realized who was telling me this.
http://s267.photobucket.com/albums/ii297/h2g230/

Religion is collections of fairytales, once upon a time intended to teach a valuable lesson. Yes, many of the lessons are long since outdated, and the lesson they teach can be horrifying to the modern, intelligent, reader.

But I don't get your outright hate. Were you all raised in extremely christian households? I come from a long line of lapsed protestants, which might explain why my attitude towards religion is "meh".

Frankly, there is a tendency in atheism towards becoming what the atheist profess to hate. Sanctimonouis dickbags with nothing but hatefull words for anyone who doesn't share their belief. Don't be those guys. Those guys are the reason why I refuse to call myself an atheist.

_________________
Every normal man must be tempted at times to spit on his hands, hoist the black flag, and begin to slit throats.

-H.L. Mencken


[url]http://www.madmanoz.blogspot.com[/url]

Agree.
I'm afraid I put Douglas's great friend Richard Dawkins in this category.

As for religion itself, as with many things its started simple as a way for man to explain the weird and wonderful things that go on in this world. Is it weak to be afraid of the unknown?
The second function was a way of stating and upholding a system of shared morals. I don't think this is weak either.
Where religion goes wrong is when religious zealots try to enforce their beliefs and morals on others often by means of war.
There is also the nonsense that morals and behaviours that were appropriate centuries ago are still relevant today just because they were written down in tomes that probably aren't translated properly anyway. Homosexual relationships could be seen as threatening the survival of mankind when infant mortality was so high.
The eating of certain types of food (pork for instance) could be dangerous because it becomes diseased more easily than others.
Women covering themselves may have been appropriate in a male dominated society where casual kidnap and rape where commonplace.

I don't have a problem with people having their own religious beliefs if it gives them a way for coping with this world.
Claiming that "my version of the monotheistic deity is better than your version of the same deity" or trying to force people to live by outdated dogma, that is cowardly and weak.

When asked my religion, I say "none". I don't feel the need to put my beliefs in anybody else's pigeonhole.

_________________
D.
The Thirteenth Triskaidekaphobe
--------------------------------------

Somebody, I forget who, once said, "I haven't got much against God, it's his fanclub I don't like."

_________________
Before long now, I'll reach the age where farting will be an essential part of propulsion.
(...don't piss us off)

The reason I support Dawkins is that he has recognised that certain religious groups have gained so much power that they are undermining science for their own political gain. He also recognises that morality is not the preserve of religion, but it is actually an evolved function of our society.

And look at how the decline in scientific understanding and awareness has led to the rise of so many quack new age mumbo jumbo pseudo science bollocks.

Someone has to make a stand. And I applaud him for it.

_________________
The drug purportedly affected an area of the brain called "Shatner's Bassoon"

I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in my body. Then I realized who was telling me this.
http://s267.photobucket.com/albums/ii297/h2g230/

One of the things that annoys me, is that hypocritical praise of god, that some religious people start when somebody is rescued from an earthquake or something. God rescued one, and killed hundreds or thousands of other innocent people? Thanks a lot!

i think gusty makes some excellent points here.

_________________
"The human gene pool needs more lifeguards!
Either that or stronger chlorination...." (Pitbull)

Creep.

_________________
The drug purportedly affected an area of the brain called "Shatner's Bassoon"

I used to think that the brain was the most wonderful organ in my body. Then I realized who was telling me this.
http://s267.photobucket.com/albums/ii297/h2g230/

I think Tony made some excellent points re Dawkins. Dawkins is brilliant, not least in his own opinion.

_________________
Before long now, I'll reach the age where farting will be an essential part of propulsion.
(...don't piss us off)

I've used the term weak or even stupid to describe overly religious folks before but it always
makes me feel a little bit guilty. I'm surrounded by a lot of decent folk who are fairly religious
and I don't want to belittle them or insult the beliefs they have every right to invest in, regardless
of how little use I have for such things. However, if the subject comes up, I tend to just ask a lot
of questions to get them to think about and define their beliefs for me. Sometimes it's to make a
point, sometimes it's because I genuinely do not understand how someone so seemingly intelligent
in other areas of life can imagine a big bearded caucasian man lying on top of some clouds waved
his finger on a Tuesday afternoon and created quantum mechanics, the Black Plague and newts.

I just think, in the end, aside from the obvious inadequacies and superstitions inherent in most
religious beliefs, it's a boring, piss poor way to describe a Universe so filled with astonishing
wonder that it can blow the lid off your brain no matter what you're smoking. The tiniest drop
of modern cosmology is so much more beautiful and elegant than the entire Bible, illustrated and
serialized in graphic novel format by the resurrected clone of Michaelangelo himself.

And this is where we get into the ignorance and weakness. To ignore science and the scientific
method as a means to explore and explain the natural world is to bury one's head in the sand
in somewhat unforgivable fashion. If you're that convinced that there is a God (and he's not just
a giant supercomputer running this perfect simulation we all exist inside) then please put your
ideas to the test and offer up evidence, proof, debate or whatever that doesn't fall back on the
invisible, intangible cop-out called "faith". Faith is absence of reason. You have to do better than
that. Challenge the old ideas, the stories in a dusty old book written by people without the first
clue how the world around them, let alone the Universe, actually works. Ancient, antiquated
notions, superstitions and rituals. It's all just spiritual thumb sucking for comfort otherwise.

Isn't the Universe a little more interesting than that?

_________________
Steal Compass. Drive North. Disappear.

twitter: @kensocrates

I agree that religious writings should be seen as historical views of a historical time. But there are powerful people who base the the laws and rules of nations on this, and base the upbringing of their offspring on this, and kill in its name. I don't think I hate. I hope I don't. Not religion and religious people as such. What I do hate is hypocracy and people who do not practice what they preach unto others. I despise the fact that you can hold a fairy tale to be an absolute truth, contrary to science, common sense and humanism in this day and age. Truth is not, as beauty, in the eye of the beholder.

I wasn't raised religiously. In fact, I can't recall God ever even being mentioned. I still grew up to not become an axe wielding homicidal maniac.

_________________
Before long now, I'll reach the age where farting will be an essential part of propulsion.
(...don't piss us off)

well, that´s true for the majority of believers also, no?
ah well, i guess it come back to summarizing the summary of the summary: people are a problem.

don´t get me wrong: i´m far from being a fan of religion, and i´m genuinely concerned and disgusted by the flat-earth approach some of the zealots have, even in so-called "modern societies".
but i thought we were discussing religion as a pool for the weak. and this is what i would sign blindly.

_________________
"The human gene pool needs more lifeguards!
Either that or stronger chlorination...." (Pitbull)

I totally agree with that aspect of his attitude. What I cannot abide is his <irony approaching> "holier than thou" attitude that what he says is true and you are stupid if you cannot see that.
He cannot prove that what he believes from todays's scientific understanding of the universe any more than the people who believe in the old guy with the beard. His anti-religioius zealotry is just as wearing as the religious zealotry.

_________________
D.
The Thirteenth Triskaidekaphobe
--------------------------------------

Yes, I think we live in times where religions are perceived as causing a lot of trouble, whether it's suicidal fanatics or generations of abuse being unearthed.

Some of our 'anti' religious posts here are very vehement, many of us seem to have issues about religion. I was baptised C of E, went to Methodist Sunday school and now live in Catholic Ireland. So whilst my religious upbringing was pretty relaxed I was startled by the amount of influence the Catholic Church had (and still has - though of course my wife and Irish friends all grew up with this as normal) here in Ireland even before the scale of the abuse of this power became evident

I made up my mind that religion wasn't something I could go along with because I can't in all honesty say that i believe the bible describes a life style which will allow the faithful to enter heaven after they die, which seems to be the general concensus amongst religious people. In fact, when i read the New Testament I don't actually believe Jesus thought we were all going to heaven at all - he's a voice of reason telling us to be nice to each other so the kingdom of heaven can exist here on earth. And there seems to be evidence that some of the other gospels would support this point of view, esp the gospel of Thomas (who we know now as 'doubting Thomas' of course)
But though i am an avid follower of science and all things scientific, I can't believe that the universe is limited to what can be experienced, measured and observed, so the atheist point of view is sometimes as limiting as the religious one. The sneering disdain I sometimes see in Dawkins' words as he picks apart someone's faith is an insult to the human condition as far as i'm concerned, there has to be tolerance in all belief

Religion and science are two attempts to make sense of what we're all doing here imo and should both be respected for that; i don't see them as being mutually exclusive. Where I favour science over religion is that it has the capacity to admit it's sometimes wrong and to evolve; religion claims to know all the answers and this closed mindedness has to be some sort of sin, considering human consciousness has to be one of God's greatest gifts (if He/She/It exists of course)

_________________
if you can keep your head whilst all around you people are losing theirs, you may have misjudged the situation

I think it's not due to weakness or anything like that. certainly not stupidity, heck, Coltrane was deeply religious, and undoubtedly a genious (whether or not one likes his music, that's a matter of personal preferences). Dylan, a man I admire for his ability to paint with words, have expressed religious ideas several times, makes him no less talented. I see the world without any glasses dictating my view, but still respect the intelligence of those I admire, even though I cannot share their views on the world. A boss I had at my first work place once said, no, he actually said it many times, 'go on, eat matchsticks, make yourself miserable, do that, if you really want to'. I try to apply the same idea when I meet religious people, if they really think it's a good idea for them, a way to fulfill their destiny or dreams, they may as well go ahead, it really doesn't hurt me. Just like political beliefs, there has to be freedom, and like food, if someone wants to eat only vegetables, I don't mind, as long as they won't kill me for wanting to run to the woods with a gun and kill myself a huge lump of meat for dinner...
I think I believe in coffee. I might also believe in Digestives. McVities.
I may be weak, but I am also rather hungry, so right now I believe I shall heat some pasta my mother gave me (the kind woman).

Ah, I think I hear a prophet on the balcony, it says 'coffee shall be thine only deity'. 'if you drink much coffee you will not sleep tonight'. Truer prophesies have not been uttered. 'Thou shall keep coffee away from milk and sugar'. Mmmm. 'For Black is the colour it shall be'. The colour thy coffee shall have is, has always been, and must forever remain Black'. 'For such are the words uttered by the great JAVA, speaker of the divine will of the sacred Beanie'.

I clearly just heard those words. Sadly, nobody else was here, so, much like the bible, you must take my word for it. I might add that I have a smallish 'jazz beard', so I'm probably the chosen one. Now, I suppose there might be one or two people who don't believe in this. It's up to you, but let me tell you this: you will burn for a couple of million years if you don't follow me. Am I not a good and nice guy?

Beep.
Skei (the chosen one, the it shall be black one)

_________________
Ophelia was a preference, not humanly accessible, not as such.

Other than that it has also proven to be a great tool to be applied by terrorists in order to drum up support for their evil causes. Those dudes act much like politicians as we get closer to election day:'Follow me, I promise you a better life.' 'All you have to do is die and you will feel much better.'
'Just tie these sticks of dynamite around you, enter the bus, and you are my best pal!'
'Trust me, we are better than the rest, because we have seen the light.'

Notice how these, well perhaps not the dynamite and death stuff, would work, uttered by a mad taliban, or a politician during election...
Coincidences, you say, I think not.
I suspect a conspiracy. Let's go out and fight those evil politicians, before they start building their assembly halls and hotel de ville's all over our beautiful country.

'Let us bomb the eiffel tower, then after a few years of war we can build a mosque on the site.' 'Great idea, and sell little models of a macdonalds restaurant blown up, to tourists, the infidel pigs.'
Peace
Skei (the saddened by the state of the world one)

_________________
Ophelia was a preference, not humanly accessible, not as such.

Of course there's also this thing, I mean, see a society like a growing human, starts out with very vague notions about the world (stone age) learns that there are actually people around it (medieval times) thinks his parents know everything (still medieval, religion being the parents) learns that parents don't know everything (later, now science comes about, some people distrust the papal might, they are killed) teenagers (revolution, protestants onboard, science evolves)people start to be ashamed to be seen together with their parents (god is dead, you know the things people learn to read, the bible demystified, when people can read it in english they begin to realize it's just a crappy albeit very long novel). Freedom takes a long time, and of course those who still exist on what we might call a 'medieval' level, they have a few hundred years to go before reaching enlightenment and modern times. Religion might be seen as kind of a therapy or place to rest ones weary mind after reading about the earth not being the center of the universe, that it's actually just a lump of crap thrown out there into nothingness by some angry bugblatter beast of traal...
The true shock might break out when they hear about the sandwich maker and the perfectly normal beasts. If not then, I'm pretty sure they'll have a wee jickup whilst dining at the restaurant at the end of the universe, and realize it's all gone, or when they meet the leaf counter droid on Hectrawan III, the one with a fawlty memory board which forces it to start over every time it has recharged its quantillian cells. Or when they finally see the coffee machine at the Hortizian library, the mother of all coffee machines, producing enough coffee to satisfy the western hemisphere thirteen times over, and then realizes it doesn't like coffee so it pours it all into the java brown oceans of braziliana. Causing the enormous sea monsters dwelling in it to swim aimlessly waving their ridiculously small fins in patterns forming the word 'Terminate or coffee' - in braziliana sea monster lingo. To no avail, as the dark brown color paired with the sea monster's poor eyesight added to the fact that there are only three of those huge fishie things remaining at this time - all the others have been eaten by the galloping giant poultry which reside on the beaches of the ocean, and which are known to like the taste of sea monster, not that they have anything else to chew on, actually their teeth are so bad they don't chew much at all, more just swallow anything within reach. Moreover, the ocean is so vastly, extraordinarily huge, that the three remaining monsters never actually happen to be on the same side of the planet. This is yet a problem, not much reproduction going on. In fact, within 58 years the sea monsters are probably nothing more than a fond memory among the few surviving galloping giant poultry, which are the 15 lucky ones that learn that maggots are edible, not just fun to play with and throw at each other...

That is, more or less, my final and irrevocable position as regards religion, and maggots, and sea monsters, and huge coffee machines, and...

Bah, you know where I'm at.
Peace
Leadbetter the elder, aka
the aged relative.

_________________
Ophelia was a preference, not humanly accessible, not as such.

I have nothing against religion as a whole. I respect it, and realize that many forms of it offer useful and good advice on living a good life (morals, for instance). I don't really follow anything personally, just kinda a weird mish-mash of beliefs I've mentioned previously here somewhere. I do have several religious friends, and they're all very nice people.

It's the crazies that make it look bad. The crazies all of you have already mentioned in great detail. But the way I think about it, religion doesn't make them crazy. They'd be plenty crazy without it, finding other reasons to kill a bunch of people. I find it unfortunate that religion is what's tied to those actions, thus why people hate religion.

As for those that purposefully ignore their religion's advice on what not to do, I tend to lump them under 'not religious' since they are obviously not following a religion and thus don't have one (or perhaps they made up their own, but that's a fun thing they can enjoy on their own).

_________________
In my broken chair, my wings are broken and so is my hair
I'm not in the mood for whirling

"But you have no weapons! No defenses! NO PLAN!"
"Yeah. And doesn't that scare you to death?"

The most interesting thing about this particular subject, to me, is that religion, the subject matter, is so intertwined with a huge bunch of aspects of human life that even if I realize it is in deed not very accurate and applied to the science based view to the world which I myself endorse, it is interesting from a philosophical point of view. Overrun by neo-realism, crushed under the gigantic pythonesque cartoon finger of academia, belittled by antagonists from a wide array of scientifically based lines of reasoning.
Yet it involves so much ancient wisdom - which sadly enough is buried under the bootheels of fanatics - that is actually still applied as a norm system guiding human interaction and conduct.
I think the ten commandments are probably - give or take one or two of those commandments - the best advice on how to lead a good life I've ever read.
Actually, the list of ten is more or less what our western civilisation is based on. I might be atheist, but there are good things in there too, and as I frankly (what has Frank got to do with this? Which Frank? Why?) think the gospels, the dead sea scrolls, the old testament, the lot, was once written by people who wanted to offer good advice in the form of prosaic writings on how to live along with others, it is a very good look back through the history of ourselves, the humans, with a few sideslips, admittedly, but nevertheless interesting, abused and misused by some, support and comfort for many.

_________________
Ophelia was a preference, not humanly accessible, not as such.

Didn't know where to post this link, but this discussion seemed appropriate. Ricky Gervais blogs about his atheism:

http://blogs.wsj.com/speakeasy/2010/12/19/a-holiday-message-from-ricky-gervais-why-im-an-atheist/

I was raised to have a global view of things. My dad is a big fan of both Jim Henson and Douglas, and they both have influenced me quite a bit growing up (I must say, Henson more than Douglas). Sesame Street showed me a world where religion didn't matter, and, for that matter, neither did skin tone, nationality or language. I always wanted to live in that world.

My father has a degree in theology, and my mom was raised a Catholic. My father, within the last few years, has rediscovered the church, and is now a deacon in the Deering Community Church (which happens to be one of the most open, accepting, sweet churches I've ever seen).

All of this leads me to the fact that my parents are both interested (and sometimes pushy) about my church attendence. I would go willingly and happily if not for the religious aspects. If this group of people met somewhere and discussed things that had nothing to do with "God." I wish I could just explain to them that those aspects bother me. They think I don't go for fear of rejection, when really, I just have no interest.

_________________
Zombies make bad gifts.

Same here. I enjoyed helping with the World Youth Day a couple years ago because those were good kids who looked for ways to make this world a better place. If believing in a God helps them accomplish that mission in a positive way then it's ok with me. But I simply moved on from the God concept after an honest dose of reality check. My family respects that and surprisingly enough it made some of them "come out" as well.

_________________
Human beings, who are almost unique in having the ability to learn from the experience of others, are also remarkable for their apparent disinclination to do so.
(Douglas Adams, "Last Chance to See")